Comparing Rove to a tobacco executive is cute but ludicrous. I find it especially tiresome when people imply (or in Tom’s case, say outright) that if people take their cues from someone he disagrees with, then those people must be “stupid.”

And whenever I hear people complain about the evil genius Rove, I can’t help but think they are insanely jealous they don’t have someone that talented on their side.

Believe me, if the Dems had someone who could win so many elections for them with the same sorts of divisive tactics, they would be thrilled beyond belief. As is often the case, I guess it’s a question of whose ox is being gored.

I started to cry, which started the whole world laughing,
Oh, if I’d only seen that the joke was on me.
– The Bee Gees, 1968

Glad you enjoyed this blog. It certainly sparked an interesting and fruitful discussion.

As for Friedman, I do not buy the print edition of The Times and am not a subscriber to “Times Select” — the pay wall behind which the Gray Lady’s venerable columnists have been put.

But Friedman is sometimes very interesting. Perhaps you (or someone else w/ access to the online version of the column) could email the column to me (or copy and paste it into another comment on this blog entry).

Pat Tillman served in one of the most highly skilled units in our armed forces.. and chose that path over a career playing in the NFL.

Then some of our soldiers are there because they have a family to support, and only a high school diploma, which can only get them so far. The service offered them a steady paycheck and benifits plus a chance for higher education that they could not afford to obtain on their own. They just happened to be enlisted in a time of war.

not all of our soliders are kids who failed out of college. and they are not all millionaires who just love their country so much, they’s give it all up to defend it.

I’m glad you enjoy a good intellectual tussle. While you are researching a response, let me add that it is my experience that the people who are “fighting and dying” do not differ in significant ways from the general military population. I’ll leave it to you to prove otherwise.

You may also find these points worth contemplating:

* Contrary to general reporting in the media during the Vietnam era, DOD studies show that minorities died in no greater proportion than others during that war.

* As always, the most dangerous job in combat is the platoon leader (1st or 2nd Lieutenant). As such, officers experience disproportionately high casualties rates. It would be difficult to make the case that any Army or Marine officer joins the military for economic reasons.

* My experience as a an officer in the Marines in the 1980’s was that African-Americans tended to be under represented in combat MOSs (jobs). They tended to see military service as a career option and, as such, gravitated toward administrative positions. This was in marked contrast to the “boys from the suburbs” who joined the Marines with Rambo fantasies (now more commonly World of Warcraft fantasies). My general impression is that this is still the case, although African-American representation in the military is markedly lower today than it was in my time. (Read: failing inner city schools.)

* On my regular visits to the USMC Recruit Depot at Parris Island (I live nearby), the most striking contrast from my day (1983) is:

1) The dearth of minorities. Rather than the 15-20% African-American that was the norm in my day, my best guess would be that that number has dropped well below 10%. (It is probably a bit higher in the Army.) For the record, the African-American population in the US is 14% of the total, I believe.

2) An up tick in the number of Hispanics, constituting perhaps 5-10% of the average platoon.

3) The size and strength of the recruits. I often tell people a Marine recruit platoon resembles the football team of a Division AA college in Wisconsin.

4) And, anecdotally (from brief conversations with the recruits), they seem to be brighter and better educated than my peers and I.

Having spent an afternoon this past weekend in the amputee ward at Walter Reed, I can tell you that the soldiers and Marines in such a condition do not consider themselves victims, and resent that implication (easily heard through the windows from the Code Pink protesters). So despite how we may see them, they clearly believe that bestowing a victimhoold on their condition is demeaning.

And finally, whatever one thinks of the war, the Bush Administration, whether we are at war or not (!), or anything else, there is and should be a clear line between criticizing war policy and castigating the military folks we have hired to carry out the civilian policy (unless, of course, they’re performance is lacking). Whether Kerry meant to use military personnel as a political prop, or simply screwed up a bad joke (I tend to think it was a bit of both), it is not inappropriate to make him pay a political price for failing to avoid crossing that very bright line… something he, in my estimation, has done once too often.

Jake

This is just the kind of GOOD row I’ve hoped your blog might encourage, so thank you both. Jake, your points are well argued and certainly will cause me to re-examine some of my assumptions. I will not quite concede the argument yet, but I will get back to you.

I do want to clarify that I (and perhaps Kerry, though I can’t speak for him) do not demean the people who serve in the military, or their intelligence. I only argue (based on much that I have read) that socioeconomic factors compel the less advantaged among us to serve. Though as I said, I will take that under advisement. I think, in addition to wanting to know the composition of the armed forces, we would want to know who’s actually doing the fighting and dying.

Incidentally, my father has a long record of military service and has the rank of general in the New York Guard.

On another day, I will comment on the statement that we are “a country at war.”

–Fred–